Posts by Cold Steel

56

I wanted to punch this elder so bad!

by OneDayillBeFree in

so i decided to attend the meeting last.

since i haven't gone in about 2 weeks, and i leave as soon as it ends, and elder decided to corner me at the end.

lately i've been through some very depressing family issues that are non-jw related so i haven't been my best at acting like i care about the org.

Cold Steel

“When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done. When they propose a plan — it is God’s plan. When they point the way, there is no other which is safe. When they give direction, it should mark the end of controversy. God works in no other way. To think otherwise, without immediate repentance, may cost one his faith, may destroy his testimony, and leave him a stranger to the kingdom of God.” (LDS Improvement Era 1945)

Whenever anyone or any organization tells you to stop using your “God-given” brain to think, you know you are in the presence of a cult.

Being LDS myself, I find our apologetics arm and our theological arm to be filled with some of the greatest theologians and thinker on the Earth. And unlike the Jehovah’s Witnesses, the LDS faith is allegedly based on apostles, prophets and revelation. If these claims are correct, then of course to choose a different path than one revealed from Heaven would be foolhardy. If our claims are bogus, we’re a cult big time.

Jesus claimed to be the way, the truth and the light. None, He said, could come to the Father save through Him. He, too, demanded obedience to his laws and doctrines for salvation and He submitted as well. “Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; and being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation to all them that obey him. (Hebrews 5:8-9)

John writes that all men will be judged according to their “works” (see Rev. 20:12-13). If their works are in accordance with the will of God, they will experience salvation; but if their works are in accordance with their own thoughts, their own morality and their own will, it will lead to destruction. “Why do ye call me, Lord, Lord, if ye do not what I say?” Jesus asked. (see Luke 6:46)

Neither Jesus nor the church admonishes people not to think. What they warn about is thinking one’s way out of obeying God’s will — of teaching for commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but lacking the power thereof.

Again, God confers authority on His people, but if that authority has not been conferred, then one is presuming to have the power of God when, in fact, they do not.

6

Can you help?

by Old Goat in

i seldom post here, though i read the posts here daily.

i spend most of my time just growing older.

(i became a witness in 1948, so you can guess my age.

Cold Steel

The problem with history is that it has to be defensible in order to be published. The Society cannot continue its claims as being the one and only if its history is full of false prophecies and different doctrine. The greatest roadblock, of course, is the claim itself. How does God endorse a church without endorsing it? There are no ancient scriptures that presage the Kingdom, except Daniel 2, where the stone representing the Kingdom was cut "without hands," representing it being directed by God and not man.

I've had a few JW missionaries drop by and complain about "manmade" religions. I always thought that would take some chutzpah unless you could produce some evidence that your religion wasn't manmade. At least another Adventist Restorationist movement, Seventh Day Adventism, was based on God sending Ellen G. White visions and new information. As far as I know, Russle never claimed any visions; neither did Rutherford. So what made them better scholars of the Bible than Luther, Calvin, Campbell, or Armstrong?

The first publication I ever read from the Society was The Truth That Leads to Eternal Life. Cost me twenty-five cents and I got a FREE green Bible with thin pages and cheap ink that smelled horrible. The Bible was so badly, nay, horribly, translated that I threw it away. It seemed to me that the translators had an agenda of some sort.

But Witnesses see the logic of being God's only true organization, but they're saying things only prophets could say or know, and were I them that would concern me a bit. Recall that when Jehovah returns, he will say unto many, despite their claims, "I never knew you!"

When He returns to the earth and is seen having tea with the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses, then I'll admit they have some solid foundational claims.

63

The "Flood" in Noah's day--why wasn't that Armageddon enough?

by Terry in

the great day of god the almighty certainly is a fit description for the destruction of men, women, children, grandmothers, infants and puppy dogs in the days of noah.. why didn't destroying everybody on earth except a remnant of 8 count as armageddon?.

i mean, if you are starting all over by genocide--shouldn't it count for more than bad temper?.

what are we missing?.

Cold Steel

You're entitled to your personal views/fantasies/delusions, but that doesn't make them true. I'm not arguing for the Bible, I'm just repeating what the Bible Flood account says. Speculate all you want- it doesn't change what's written. You don't like what's there so you create something that suits your personal wishes. Such is the nature of the religiously deluded.

Nothing any of us believe makes it true, but one should interpret any text in the context of either revelation or scholarly study. The text in Genesis does not say that "angels" saw the "daughters of men" and materialized bodies to have sexual intercourse with them. It says, instead, "the sons of God" saw and married the "daughters of men," and that their offspring were men of great renown. Jesus himself said that "a spirit hath not flesh and bone as thou see I have." If spirits could just pop up a physical body when they wanted to, Jesus' statement would have meant nothing.

JWs believe that Jesus was a spirit who had materialized a physical, resurrected body to fool the apostles. But no other Christian church buys this. Jesus was telling his followers that he wasn't a spirit -- and he let them examine the wounds in his hands and feet, and side. If spirits could generate bodies, then Jesus was purposely deceiving them, and that just doesn't make sense.

It was the fallen prophet Balaam who introduced seduction of the sons of Israel as a way to undermine the faith. It worked, too, and when they dragged Balaam out of an enemy tent he was killed on the spot by the army of Moses.

There's an old medical saying that goes: "When you hear galloping, think horses, not Zebras!"

It also can be applied to scriptural exegesis.

56

I wanted to punch this elder so bad!

by OneDayillBeFree in

so i decided to attend the meeting last.

since i haven't gone in about 2 weeks, and i leave as soon as it ends, and elder decided to corner me at the end.

lately i've been through some very depressing family issues that are non-jw related so i haven't been my best at acting like i care about the org.

Cold Steel

Although I don't buy his divine calling, nor the legitimacy of the Jehovah's Witness organization, you should understand that he believes this is his purview...namely your spiritual welfare. I wasn't there, but if he was butting in, he should have backed off instead of questioning your motives. Normally if a friend tells you he or she doesn't want to talk about something, it's best to leave the door open but to back off as a matter of respect.

JWs see themselves as the only recognized church of God on Earth. But the New Testament instructs: "I exhort the elders who are among you, I being also an elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed. Feed the flock of God among you, taking the oversight, not by compulsion, but willingly; nor for base gain, but readily; nor as lording it over those allotted to you by God, but becoming examples to the flock. And when the Chief Shepherd shall appear, you shall receive a never-fading crown of glory." (1 Peter 5:1-4)

And Paul writes: "Yield to those leading you, and be submissive, for they watch for your souls, as those who must give account, that they may do it with joy and not with grief; for that is unprofitable for you." (Hebrews 13:17)

Your elder seems to be trying to exercise his authority at the expense of your personal life. As a feeder of the flock he feels he can do this, while you, as a doubter, see him as a prying busybody. Try to understand his point of view and if you don't believe his calling is of God, you probably won't be comfortable in the church, where his authority is generally accepted.

15

Governing Body - Consulting Demons?

by The Searcher in

as a serving witness, i am not foolhardy enough to ask elders this question, because their 'praetorian guard' instincts would kick in, and i would be treated as an anti-christ.. w07 1/1 p. 28 par.

11- "it seems that resurrected ones of the 24-elders group may be involved in the communicating of divine truths today.

my question is simply based on this 'inspired' 'spiritual food at the proper time'; please put a little meat on the bone and tell all 7+ million of us, how do receive these "divine truths" from spirit creatures whom you cannot identify?.

Cold Steel

When the Governing Body claims it is "spirit led," they're saying that in the decisions they're making and the doctrines they're interpreting, they're being led without any overt means of communication. In other words, they may think they're making the decisions, but God is really behind it. And they may think they're interpreting scripture themselves, but it's really Jehovah. In other words, He uses them to bring about His purposes. That's why they don't feel they need to see or talk to God or an angel to know that they represent God. It's very similar to how the Pope thinks he works.

"I saw nothing! I heard nothing! It has to be of God, for I could not have done it myself!"

43

Are we all missing the true 'MARK' of the Wild Beast?

by Newly Enlightened in

disclaimer: hubby & i have been watching a 5 dvd documentary on the 'secret's of the founding father's' we're not sure if we believe everything they talk about but here is some interesting things to think about..... revelation mentions that the 'mark' would either be on the forehead, [for everyone to see] or, on the right hand [if you make a fist, it is hidden] rev also says that no one can buy or sell without this mark.

the wtbt$ isn't too clear on what they believe that mark is, so.... what is one thing that we cannot buy or sell without?.

money!.

Cold Steel

Ah, ReturnofParakeet, you have no idea.

At the time the Jehovah's Witnesses were in their formulative years, its eschatology could not adapt to Israel. Israel wasn't formed until 1947, and with all the scriptures that pointed to the gathering of Judah throughout the Old and New Testaments, Charles T. Russell couldn't incorporate it for the simple reason it hadn't happened yet. But biblical prophecy has been substantiated in the meantime; however, now it's too late. Russle and Rutherford had "spiritualized" Judah to mean "the church." Unable to turn on a dime, they were forced to retain their previous beliefs, even as Israel became a state and began to gather. John saw that the Jews would rebuild the temple and that the city would later be beseiged by its enemies. The great battle would be called Armegeddon.

The Jews have now begun to prepare its materials for the rebuilding of its temple. Priests are being taught the law of sacrifice and the famed red heifer, thought to be extinct, has now made a reappearance and genetic work has begun on reviving the species.

Now it may not make sense to you, and you may be embittered against the JWs and its eschatology; yet prophecy doesn't require belief to be fulfilled. I also cannot explain how the eschatologies of Christianity and Islam can be mirror opposites. The same story, but different points of view.

62

Enemies Of Reason -Richard Dawkins

by frankiespeakin in

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcs751gcp10.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52j5stxkbkq.

Cold Steel

Yep, Mormonism is about faith, just as many other religions claim to be; however, we’re more open to science and what it teaches us than any other religion that I’ve found. As I’ve taken pains to mention, science keeps rewriting itself. Text books that are even now being published will be obsolete in a decade. To dismiss a religion because of a perceived contradiction between it and a “snapshot” of scientific thought is, in my view, the height of error. Yet some people demand that a religion is absolutely demonstrable and subject to the scientific method.

But is this fair? Qcumbr has correctly explained our view of why we’re here and where we’re going — the purpose of life.

I have no problems discussing this further, though a JW website might not be the best venue for it.

Those who are interested in discussing this, please leave me a private message here with your e-mail. And before we get underway, it might help to know what your former religious views were (if any) and your present views. It would be helpful to also have a mail client like Outlook or Gmail, where you can receive HTML formatted messages. And finally, it would be helpful to have a copy of the Book of Mormon (though for most of this discussion, the two chapters of Nephi will be enough). Qcumbr undoubtedly has one and I can arrange to get anyone else a copy.

I do believe there is enough evidence to demonstrate that the Book of Mormon is not only plausible, but that there’s substantial evidence in its favor. As mentioned previously, with the amount of information we now have about Mesoamerican languages, DNA, cultures and history, if the Book of Mormon were false, the evidence against it should not continue to concatenate each year in favor of its credibility.

Just let me know if you'd like to do this.

1

Are Gun Magazines Okay?

by Cold Steel in

ah, you just got the phone call.

elder prickle was in the area and thought he'd drop by with the missus and say hello.

you do some last minute readying but on one of the tables is your latest issue of guns & ammo or the american rifleman.

Cold Steel

Ah, you just got the phone call. Elder Prickle was in the area and thought he'd drop by with the missus and say hello. You do some last minute readying but on one of the tables is your latest issue of Guns & Ammo or The American Rifleman. Sadly, you don't notice it until you see Elder Prickle move the latest Watchtower aside and eye it over the rims of his glasses. He makes some small talk, but it's too late. The cover of the magazine, sporting the latest plastic .40 Springfield pistol, is now in plain sight.

Elder Prickle is originally from Chicago, where guns are tightly regulated.

Question: Is he likely to make anything of it? And if so, is he likely to bring it up then or later, when he can chat with you on his own turf? Or will he just discreetly ignore his own predilections?

I know some of you have said that elders differ in their counsel regarding firearms, but this is your own home where he's a guest.

Or does that matter?

What if he spotted a religious tract someone gave you at work...something with "Are YOU Saved?" plastered all over it in flames.

Thanks!

43

Are we all missing the true 'MARK' of the Wild Beast?

by Newly Enlightened in

disclaimer: hubby & i have been watching a 5 dvd documentary on the 'secret's of the founding father's' we're not sure if we believe everything they talk about but here is some interesting things to think about..... revelation mentions that the 'mark' would either be on the forehead, [for everyone to see] or, on the right hand [if you make a fist, it is hidden] rev also says that no one can buy or sell without this mark.

the wtbt$ isn't too clear on what they believe that mark is, so.... what is one thing that we cannot buy or sell without?.

money!.

Cold Steel

This is what happens when you spend too much time reading or listening to Alex Jones.

As for the great seal and all that other nonsense, take a look at GreatSeal.com.

Regarding the Beast of Revelation, if you live in the United States you have little to worry about. The Beast will be primarily a world power based in Europe, not the Western Hemisphere. Most likely, he will arise with the power vacuum created by the collapse of the United States. With no allies in the region, Israel will be left greatly vulnerable, and the Beast will raise a powerful army which he will use to march on Jerusalem. It's doubtful there will be an actual mark in that, contextually, the mark in one's forehead is a sign of one's loyalty. When John speaks about the 144,000, he says they will have the Father's name written into their foreheads. Again, loyalty, not literally.

After reading a number of prophecy books, I recommend The Islamic Antichrist, by Joel Richardson. In it, he quotes well-known Muslim apologist Osamah Abdallah. The question posited to him was, “What do Muslims believe about the end of the world and Jesus’ part in it?” His answer is astonishing as it relates to this discussion:

Briefly, Christians believe that Jesus will come down to earth and fight for the state of Israel.… What seems to be quite ironic to me is that those Jews that Jesus is supposedly going to fight for don’t even believe in Jesus as GOD himself nor as a Messenger of GOD.… Jesus never liked the Jews.… Now without being biased, we Muslims have a story that makes a lot more sense and is empty of contradictions!

We believe that Jesus will come down to earth toward the end of the world time to fight the army of Satan which will be mostly from the “bad” Jews or “Zionist Jews” as we call them today, and the deceived from the Polytheist Christians or the Trinitarian Christians and the Pagan Polytheists such as Hindus, Buddhists, etc.… Some Jews and many Christians will be among the good and blessed who will fight with Jesus’ side. The army of Satan will be led by a person who will claim to be Jesus Christ himself. The Muslims will call him the Dajjal or the Deceiver. The real Jesus’ army will fight the Dajjal’s army and defeat him. The empire of Israel will fall, and the religion of Islam will prevail.

Richardson, Joel (2009-07-28). The Islamic Antichrist: The Shocking Truth about the Real Nature of the Beast

Keeping in mind that the Jehovah's Witnesses have a very unique view of Armageddon and move it from Jerusalem to make it a worldwide conflict in which all evil will be destroyed. Ezekiel, Zechariah and John, however, place it in Jerusalem. Richardson writes:

The most common belief, however, held almost universally by Bible teachers, is that the Antichrist’s empire will be a revived Roman empire. There are, however, some glaring problems with this theory. First, Rome was the sixth empire. If Rome was the sixth and will also be the last, then what happened to the seventh? This theory has a gaping hole. Is Rome the sixth, seventh, and eighth empires? Not Scripture nor history nor common sense supports this notion. Second, every one of the previous six empires ruled the Middle East, including Jerusalem. This is very important! We must always remember that the Bible is thoroughly Jerusalem-centric. It is not America-centric, nor is it Western-centric. In the biblical view of things, Jerusalem is the center of the earth. This point cannot be underscored enough.

It's remarkable how close Islamic prophecy is to Christian prophecy, only the good guys and bad guys are reversed. The Islamic Jesus comes to destroy the Jews and put Jerusalem back into the hands of the Muslims, while the Christian Jesus will come to defend the Jews. Both will display miraculous powers. Muslim authorities are bold in declaring that Christians are going to have to be willing to accept the true Jesus:

When Jesus returns he will personally correct the misrepresentations and misinterpretations about himself. He will affirm the true message that he brought in his time as a prophet, and that he never claimed to be the Son of God. Furthermore, he will reaffirm in his second coming what he prophesied in his first coming bearing witness to the seal of the Messenger, Prophet Muhammad. In his second coming many non-Muslims will accept Jesus as a servant of Allah Almighty, as a Muslim and a member of the community of Muhammad. (The Approach of Armageddon, Muhammad Hisham Kabbani, p. 337)

The above answers a longheld question I had about why, when Jesus returns and is seen by many on the Mount of Olives, Muslims won't immediately be converted but will only be moved to greater rebellion. Indeed, the Lord says that if Egypt comes not up to Jerusalem thereafter, that He will send judgments against them. Apparently they will be so pissed off about being on the wrong side of things that they won't know how to handle it:

And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. (Zechariah 14:16-19)

14

Angels and Jehovah's Witnesses

by Cold Steel in

what would happen if a jehovah's witness claimed to see an angel or have an angelic experience?

what would the reaction of the church be if one of the governing body claimed to have seen an angel or have an angelic experience?

by "angelic experience" i mean being shown future events by an angelic presence.

Cold Steel

By the way, lest we forget, the whole topic here is that if God's going to start a religion, is He going to do it under the cover of darkness or is He going to speak as He always has, through angels, prophets, visions, prophecy, etc.? The Jehovah's Witnesses just assumed themselves into positions of authority. You may not buy Mormonism...that's fine...but how else is God going to do things?

We Mormons at least have a claim and we have resources that can show our claims are at least plausible on many accounts. But without divine authority, what is any religion? And how can JWs and others call other churches "manmade" when they, themselves, also seem manmade?

Just sayin'.